Hotels FAQ

Question:

>> If you have lots of time and little money, you could consider a cargo > boat. Some of those do carry fare paying passengers. >Passenger carrying freighters are NOT cheap, certainly compared >to an inexpensive plane ticket.

But you can’t compare them to a mere plane ticket. It’s a plane ticket (one-way) PLUS 6-8 days of a first-class hotel, in terms of accommodations and food. At least that’s what my 8-day crossing was from Baltimore to Rotterdam on the French container ship l’Atlantique Cognac. )) And, at the time, it was precisely 1/2 the rate of the cheapest berth on the QE2, the only regular passenger ship left in the Atlantic. I recommend it highly — but for a rest, not for getting to Europe cheaply.

Response:

>…. >Passenger carrying freighters are NOT cheap, certainly compared >to an inexpensive plane ticket.

I must admit that my experiences with ships date from the 1960s and in real terms air fares are probably much cheaper now than then. I also suspect that the ship I used has probably gone to the bottom or been scrapped long since. The Captain refused to let the son of the owner aboard even in port because it was too dangerous. It was, however, an interesting trip. Colin Bignell

Response:

> If you have lots of time and little money, you could consider a cargo > boat. Some of those do carry fare paying passengers.

Passenger carrying freighters are NOT cheap, certainly compared to an inexpensive plane ticket.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The seats on cargo carriers are technically cockpit seats. There is no bulkhead (for >evacuation reasons) between the actual flight area and the back of the bubble where >the seats are. Consequently, the seats can be occupied ONLY by persons who are >appropriately certified (other flight crew) or those who have completed a specific >safety course on the aircraft (FedEx employees, as an example, who aren’t flight >crew can occupy a seat which is technically a jumpseat after such a course). >The access to the seats is conditionalupon a number of things : >1) compliance with the Federal Aviation regulations, FAR 121.61 (as I recall) and >others. >2) approval of the carrier. >3) not being a passenger seat, the carrir is not permitted to charge a fare. It is a >non-revenue seat. >4) FAA operations staff can request it as an observer. >In other words, put it out of your mind. The seats you are referring to are most >definitely not available to the public. These things are freighters, and there is no >food, no movie, no cocktails, and they leave when they leave and there is only a >loose scedule – usually at 3:00 am. >Don’t even think about it!

For heaven’s sake, FAA regulations do not apply to Cargolux.  In case you don’t know, Cargolux is registered in Luxembourg which is a country in Europe.  Cargolux definitely had sold passenger tickets on some of their scheduled cargo flights between Asia and Europe.  It’s a fact, and I’m not the only person who has pointed this out! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >>Sorry, I used the wrong term and got the obvious answers: jumpseats, > >>which are in the cockpit, aren’t for paying passengers.  I should have > >>asked about passenger seats on cargo planes.  Does anyone know which, if > >>any, airfreight carrier might accept paying passengers for those seats? > >>This question was prompted by my recent discovery that Boeing will > >>configure the top deck on 747-400 freighters with a small number of > >>seats — 25 comes to mind, but I may remember a wrong number.  It > >>occurred to me that there may not be enough company employees to > >>regularly fill all those seats, and the carrier might welcome paying > >>passengers.  I have more time than money, so I could get interested. > >>Thanks. > >>David Habercom > >To my knowledge airlines with freighters don’t sell these seats for a passenger > >without some connection to the cargo.  They are typically used (i.e. sold)  for > >cargo couriers and animal attendants. > Well, it has been mentioned in the original thread that Cargolux used to > sell passenger seats on some of their freighter services.  However, I > don’t know if they still do it.

Response:

>Sorry, I used the wrong term and got the obvious answers: jumpseats, >which are in the cockpit, aren’t for paying passengers.  I should have >asked about passenger seats on cargo planes.

The same answers I gave before still apply. It is whether the aircraft is flying as a Public Transport aircraft (i.e. carrying fare paying passengers) or as an aircraft involved in Aerial Work, (i.e. earning money by any means other than carrying fare paying passengers) that is important. What you call the seats and where they are is irrelevant. >.. It >occurred to me that there may not be enough company employees to >regularly fill all those seats, and the carrier might welcome paying >passengers.  I have more time than money, so I could get interested.

As far as the airline is concerned, it would cost a lot of money to make those seats available to fare paying passengers. They have no incentive to do so and if they did it the economic fare would probably be more than a cheap seat on a normal passenger flight. If you have lots of time and little money, you could consider a cargo boat. Some of those do carry fare paying passengers. Colin Bignell

Response:

The seats on cargo carriers are technically cockpit seats. There is no bulkhead (for evacuation reasons) between the actual flight area and the back of the bubble where the seats are. Consequently, the seats can be occupied ONLY by persons who are appropriately certified (other flight crew) or those who have completed a specific safety course on the aircraft (FedEx employees, as an example, who aren’t flight crew can occupy a seat which is technically a jumpseat after such a course). The access to the seats is conditionalupon a number of things : 1) compliance with the Federal Aviation regulations, FAR 121.61 (as I recall) and others. 2) approval of the carrier. 3) not being a passenger seat, the carrir is not permitted to charge a fare. It is a non-revenue seat. 4) FAA operations staff can request it as an observer. In other words, put it out of your mind. The seats you are referring to are most definitely not available to the public. These things are freighters, and there is no food, no movie, no cocktails, and they leave when they leave and there is only a loose scedule – usually at 3:00 am. Don’t even think about it! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Sorry, I used the wrong term and got the obvious answers: jumpseats, >>which are in the cockpit, aren’t for paying passengers.  I should have >>asked about passenger seats on cargo planes.  Does anyone know which, if >>any, airfreight carrier might accept paying passengers for those seats? >>This question was prompted by my recent discovery that Boeing will >>configure the top deck on 747-400 freighters with a small number of >>seats — 25 comes to mind, but I may remember a wrong number.  It >>occurred to me that there may not be enough company employees to >>regularly fill all those seats, and the carrier might welcome paying >>passengers.  I have more time than money, so I could get interested. >>Thanks. >>David Habercom >To my knowledge airlines with freighters don’t sell these seats for a passenger >without some connection to the cargo.  They are typically used (i.e. sold)  for >cargo couriers and animal attendants. > Well, it has been mentioned in the original thread that Cargolux used to > sell passenger seats on some of their freighter services.  However, I > don’t know if they still do it.

Response:

> Sorry, I used the wrong term and got the obvious answers: jumpseats, > which are in the cockpit, aren’t for paying passengers.  I should have > asked about passenger seats on cargo planes.  Does anyone know which, if > any, airfreight carrier might accept paying passengers for those seats?

The answer to this question is very similar to the answer to your other question.  Because of the amount of cargo these carriers transport,  the U.S. companies (at least) must adhere to the same regulations the major passenger airlines follow.  For 25 seats in the upper deck, this would mean FA’s, etc.  AFAIK, no cargo companies have chosen to sell those seats as such. These seats are generally used by couriers, and employees of various airlines on a non-revenue basis.  UPS did (and may still) reconfigure some of their 727’s for passenger service on the weekends. Also, some airlines fly "combi" aircraft, which hold greater than normal cargo, and fewer than normal passengers.  This is probably as close as most carriers will get to selling seats on their cargo airliners. –Mark Rogers

Response:

>Sorry, I used the wrong term and got the obvious answers: jumpseats, >which are in the cockpit, aren’t for paying passengers.  I should have >asked about passenger seats on cargo planes.  Does anyone know which, if >any, airfreight carrier might accept paying passengers for those seats?

FAA prohibits US-based airlines from allowing people into the cockpit while the plane is in motion. However, there is no such restriction on foreign airlines, especially if they’re landing somewhere other than in the US. (whoo-hoo! ) In that case… it is up to the flight crew’s discretion if they want to invite you to the cockpit for any part of the flight (best is landing, IMO). But regardless, you need to already have a seat on the plane to board… As for say, air freight carriers, read on. >This question was prompted by my recent discovery that Boeing will >configure the top deck on 747-400 freighters with a small number of >seats — 25 comes to mind, but I may remember a wrong number.  It >occurred to me that there may not be enough company employees to >regularly fill all those seats, and the carrier might welcome paying >passengers.  I have more time than money, so I could get interested.

Actually, there may be existing regulations that effectively make this a rather difficult option to ‘rely’ on. Such as, company policy, FAA regulations regarding certification of type of plane/flight/pilot training/insurance liability in order to accommodate passengers. The FAA *is* anal about this with private pilots, let me tell you! They may go after a private pilot if he flies for money (for example) where pilot and passengers do not equally split all costs *and* am not flying for an incidental reason, and and and… There are some possibilities such as acting as a courier that may result in an effectively reduced (50%?) ticket, but not that common for the average person and also has baggage restrictions among other things. -Dan

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Sorry, I used the wrong term and got the obvious answers: jumpseats, >which are in the cockpit, aren’t for paying passengers.  I should have >asked about passenger seats on cargo planes.  Does anyone know which, if >any, airfreight carrier might accept paying passengers for those seats? >This question was prompted by my recent discovery that Boeing will >configure the top deck on 747-400 freighters with a small number of >seats — 25 comes to mind, but I may remember a wrong number.  It >occurred to me that there may not be enough company employees to >regularly fill all those seats, and the carrier might welcome paying >passengers.  I have more time than money, so I could get interested. >Thanks. >David Habercom >To my knowledge airlines with freighters don’t sell these seats for a passenger >without some connection to the cargo.  They are typically used (i.e. sold)  for >cargo couriers and animal attendants.

Well, it has been mentioned in the original thread that Cargolux used to sell passenger seats on some of their freighter services.  However, I don’t know if they still do it.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Sorry, I used the wrong term and got the obvious answers: jumpseats, >which are in the cockpit, aren’t for paying passengers.  I should have >asked about passenger seats on cargo planes.  Does anyone know which, if >any, airfreight carrier might accept paying passengers for those seats? >This question was prompted by my recent discovery that Boeing will >configure the top deck on 747-400 freighters with a small number of >seats — 25 comes to mind, but I may remember a wrong number.  It >occurred to me that there may not be enough company employees to >regularly fill all those seats, and the carrier might welcome paying >passengers.  I have more time than money, so I could get interested. >Thanks. >David Habercom

To my knowledge airlines with freighters don’t sell these seats for a passenger without some connection to the cargo.  They are typically used (i.e. sold)  for cargo couriers and animal attendants.

Response:

I don’t think the airline’s insurance carrier would allow this.  The insurance treatment of passengers on a scheduled passenger flight is different from a cargo flight (there may not be any coverage at all on the cargo flight- I don’t know).  Also, why would an airline compete with itself? Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Sorry, I used the wrong term and got the obvious answers: jumpseats, > which are in the cockpit, aren’t for paying passengers.  I should have > asked about passenger seats on cargo planes.  Does anyone know which, if > any, airfreight carrier might accept paying passengers for those seats? > This question was prompted by my recent discovery that Boeing will > configure the top deck on 747-400 freighters with a small number of > seats — 25 comes to mind, but I may remember a wrong number.  It > occurred to me that there may not be enough company employees to > regularly fill all those seats, and the carrier might welcome paying > passengers.  I have more time than money, so I could get interested. > Thanks. > David Habercom

Response:

Sorry, I used the wrong term and got the obvious answers: jumpseats, which are in the cockpit, aren’t for paying passengers.  I should have asked about passenger seats on cargo planes.  Does anyone know which, if any, airfreight carrier might accept paying passengers for those seats? This question was prompted by my recent discovery that Boeing will configure the top deck on 747-400 freighters with a small number of seats — 25 comes to mind, but I may remember a wrong number.  It occurred to me that there may not be enough company employees to regularly fill all those seats, and the carrier might welcome paying passengers.  I have more time than money, so I could get interested. Thanks. David Habercom

Response: